Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 Cast news features and analysis brought to you by Diary Vital. Hi Joe. Well, it's good to see you again. Where have you just come back from?
Speaker 3 00:00:51 Right. I've been making my near annual pilgrimage to Ravish near the Brazilian Tall Show held in Sao Paolo and, uh, one of the fixtures on the ceramic tile calendar.
Speaker 0 00:01:03 Oh, so how many times have you been before then?
Speaker 3 00:01:06 Oh, quite a few. I think the first time I went was about 18 years ago and I haven't gone every year since, but I've done a good chunk of years plus obviously a gap recently because of, uh, COVID 19. Oh, I'm
Speaker 0 00:01:17 Showing your age a bit now. Um, so how, how many other journalists were there? We, we,
Speaker 3 00:01:23 Right, well, good company. There were obviously Brazilian journalists, but of overseas journalists there were rumors would be five me and three from South America Plus, and somebody called Marco from Italy. But none of us actually managed to see Marco the entire time we were there, although he was supposed to be staying at the same hotel. Oh,
Speaker 0 00:01:41 Okay. Well, hello Marco, you are out there. Just let us know what happened to you cuz we're concerned. But any rate, how was the show?
Speaker 3 00:01:48 Well, it was, it was different from any other rege I've ever been to, but that was because it's had moved from the Transamerica Center to the Sao Paolo Expo. Uh, so it's now a show on a grow bag. The previous venue had a, a daily capacity of around 20,000. Uh, the Sao Paolo expo is about 57,000 and it is big. It's very big. The main hall is somewhere between one and one and a half kilometers long. Uh, so it is super huge and it can accommodate a pretty big tile show.
Speaker 0 00:02:18 So is this a natural progression from where it was before the pandemic, or did it just have to move and then it filled the space? Do you
Speaker 3 00:02:25 Know? I think it was that they had run outta space, that there was a limit to how far they could take the show. But my, my guess is that was the decision made pre pandemic and now it would've probably fitted quite well in the old one. But going forward it'll need the new space because largely it was Brazilian exhibitors this time. Whereas in the past there's been a pretty good representation of big factories, particularly from Europe, but also from emerging nations like China, India, whatever.
Speaker 0 00:02:51 All right. So they might come back in, uh, future shows you
Speaker 3 00:02:55 Think? Well, I'd think so. I mean, essentially any tall show in the world at the moment has very little Chinese representation because of the strict lockdown then. And although that's been lifted, it's gonna take a while for all the commercial activities to kick up again, I think. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um,
Speaker 0 00:03:09 So who was attending with, apart from you journalists,
Speaker 3 00:03:12 Right? Well, it's uh, it's essentially about 40% architects and interior designers, about 30% distributors and retailers, about 10% developers and contractors. And then there's a large, about 20% of others. And I suspect that a lot of those are just interested house owners and just people who liked to go to the interior design show. So
Speaker 0 00:03:34 There weren't many foreign exhibitors this year. So who, who was buying and selling at the show? Right.
Speaker 3 00:03:39 Well, there never are a vast number of foreign exhibitors or visitors. This year I was told there were around a thousand foreign visitors and quite a few of them have been specifically invited, but they were supposed to be drawn from 55 countries. But the largest element, without any doubt would've come from south and Central America because that is really where the Brazilian market lies. It exports, Brazil exports somewhere in the region of $490 million worth of tiles a year. And of that 51% are exposed to South America, 25% to North America and 20% to Central America. So as you put all those sums together, it doesn't leave much for anywhere else. Europe, for instance, only accounts for about 2% of Brazil's.
Speaker 0 00:04:22 So it is, it's a show for the Americas really at the, at the moment rate.
Speaker 3 00:04:27 I think that is what it is. I'm not sure that's what it aspires to be, but you know, it's fine. It mean, uh, south America is a very big place and a successful show there. You're still talking about huge audience. I mean, Brazil alone is 200 million plus. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I think they would like it to be a big international reference point, but at the moment, yeah, it's fair to say it probably isn't.
Speaker 0 00:04:51 Right. So, and, and where, where's Brazil at in terms of designs?
Speaker 3 00:04:55 Right. Well, I would say that since I've been going there, Brazil is beginning to look more and more like everywhere else internal tile designs. F when I first went there, as I say 18 years ago, it had a distinctly Brazilian feel. Some of the themes and the patterns and textures were Brazilian, for instance, the sort of stuff that dealt with rainforest decor, that sort of thing. And there were quite a lot of natural materials based on indigenous materials in Brazil, like bamboo or some of the exotic hardwoods. Well now if you didn't, if you could take the name off each of the stands and you'd say to somebody, you know, where is this tar company from? And not that many, you would immediately go, oh, they're Brazilian. There are one or two. Um, there are companies like Manu Fatty and Nina Martinelli that are distinctly Brazilian, but that's cuz they're doing things that really you only see in Brazil like Kago or they're using certain colors or materials that I think the well-trained eye would tell you a Brazilian. But if you went onto a Portobello stand or Eliani Stand or Portinari Stand or Elizabeth Stand, you could be on any of the big European factories from,
Speaker 0 00:05:57 You'd better backtrack. Kaos explain
Speaker 3 00:06:00 Kago is right, the PS three dimensional screens that allow light and air through which are distinctly Brazilian. You'll, if you ever look on Dile at, you'll see I've written quite extensively about these pieces cuz I love them and they are something I first saw in Brazil. And they are still something that is a distinctive trademark really, of the Brazilian Tar Show. This year there weren't, there are only only three stands that had them, Manu, fatty Portinari and Portobello, but there were some interesting ones. There was one which incorporated quite a lot of reclaimed muscle shell. Wow. Um, and then there were some simple glaze ones. Uh, man Fatty had the best display, really, really beautiful screens with different shapes. And as you walk past them, you get the kind of distorted view through them. They're, they're wonderful things. There
Speaker 0 00:06:48 Was, there was a bit of that at, uh, chair Si wasn't there. I mean that seemed to be a fairly new thing at Chair si sort of three-dimensional tile structure that was designed as a, a room divider or
Speaker 3 00:06:57 A Yep. Um, it's coming. Um, there was, I've seen them at the Surface Design Show in London. I've seen them at, uh, Clark Andwell Design Week. But <laugh> I think, I mean I, if I'm gonna claim anything, I mean I have been singing the praise of these things for quite a few years now and it's taken a long time for anybody to, to bring them to Europe. There is now one company in London that's doing it, but they, I think with the trends, the current trend, dominant trend for indoor outdoor living, ka gobo have got a huge role to play. Plus you couldn't have them as high half height screens indoors because they're pierced, they're not so dominant. Um, and they're beautiful. So
Speaker 0 00:07:33 It is fair to say then that possibly bra, the Brazilians show in the past is actually influenced in Europe, I
Speaker 3 00:07:40 Suspect. So, um, there's no doubt that the, the top Brazilian factories, and I would have to single out Portobello here. If you were, if you were serious about the tile industry, you really are gonna have to pay close attention to what this factory is doing because they are so ambitious. Uh, they're so good at investing in design, investing in manufacturing, production technology. But yeah, I've, I've always found that the smaller factories that you see at Ravish di have some fascinating product. Um, a lot of it is never exported, but you can always export the ideas.
Speaker 0 00:08:11 Yeah, absolutely. But if you say it's beginning to look a bit more like a European show as well, may it's going both ways. It is.
Speaker 3 00:08:18 I mean there are still noticeable differences. Um, I would say that the large trends are the same. I mean, there's a lot of white marble effects. There are a lot of stone beige stone effects. So there's sort of limestone, lots of cement effects. What this year there were far fewer wood effect tiles at Brazil than there have been in the past. That was quite interesting. And there are a lot more glossy tiles than you would probably see in a European or a North American show now. But, you know, that's, that's maybe just the trend over there
Speaker 0 00:08:48 Aren't and favorites.
Speaker 3 00:08:50 Um,
Speaker 0 00:08:50 What stood out for you apart from the go goers?
Speaker 3 00:08:52 Well, the thing that stood out for me probably, probably were some of the 1970s inspired tiles. So curve patterns, brown on brown tones, they're kind of, you know, playful throwbacks. And that was a dominant theme. There were some other things. I mean, some of the colors blue and particularly green marbles, which I mean we were seeing that in shows like chair science, service armor, but it was underlined, I think at Reir I would say they were the main differences. And obviously because you're tending to see the big factories displaying there, they mean Brazil's got about 60 large scale manufacturers, but they are largely into large format tiles. So you were seeing that plus a few slab people and really I think there was only one big European factory there, which was the Eris group, which had FMG and S Steer and some of their other brands. But it was, you know, large formats, um, and media size formats generally from the, from the big factories
Speaker 0 00:09:43 And, and I going on around the show. What, what's a Brazilian show like to go to? Right.
Speaker 3 00:09:49 Uh, I think there are, if I count of three kind of distinguishing features, one is the mix of people. It may just be me, but it always seems there is a lot closer balance between male and female attendees at Brazil. So conspicuously more women attending the show. And I would say the audience is younger than the average tile show in Europe. And they do the, the talks, they have a sort of series of architectural talks linked to the show and that is very well attended and it attracts some really big names. Um, so the likes of Ron Arad have, have spoken there and, and others. Um, and it's very international and it's, I always found it interesting in a show that is maybe quite South American. The speakers are from Japan, China, Europe, north America, pretty much anywhere. And they are some, they've had some really big names. I mean, other people who are Thailand well know I really like, like Patricia Coyer has spoken there. They get some, they get some really top names. Oscar, near Mayer. Yeah. They've had, they've had some real, real top architects there.
Speaker 0 00:10:52 So it sounds like quite an outward looking event.
Speaker 3 00:10:55 It is. And uh, maybe the, the, the most distinguishing feature that shows this is the prevalence of social media at the show. And you think, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 0 00:11:04 Is that that was said like an old bloke saying social media.
Speaker 3 00:11:08 Yeah, well hello old bloke talking. No, what I found it fascinating because not only are there loads of people there who are clearly there to, uh, post up selfies and videos and other things, and they are dressed for the part and they, in pairs, and it's nearly all women doing this, but the, a lot of the stands are playing balls too. So they have specific areas that are designed to be sat in and photographed on. And it's, I mean it, this show took it to quite l extremes. There was a Barbie car you could sit in and have your pitch takers a Barbie, but next door there was a box. So you could actually be the Barbie doll in a box across the hall and there would couldn't be
Speaker 0 00:11:47 Ken.
Speaker 3 00:11:47 Uh, Ken wasn't really at the races, I'm afraid, across the hall. And then there was Barbie's, bedroom Barbie's, kitchen Barbie's, uh, B bathroom.
Speaker 0 00:11:56 Okay, well I'm kind of hoping this isn't a forthcoming trend, but
Speaker 3 00:12:00 You know, well I think, but I think the other areas there will be, I mean, brands like Elizabeth who stand was absolutely enormous. By the way. They had three, they spanned three aisles at this show and each one had a huge seat with a ceramic logo above the top of it. And it was designed so that people could pose in it and have their photograph taken and project the brand around the world. But there were so many other stands. The the key thing seemed to be you've got a fancy seat, I mean like suspended chair or an enormous sofa and you encourage people to come.
Speaker 0 00:12:35 The brand names were loomed large, presumably. Was it not just good marketing?
Speaker 3 00:12:40 It it wasn't as actually, I mean I thought at first, yes, it, this is just purely so that people will be photographed in front of the brand. And actually though, as they went around the show recording all of these things, not many of them actually did have the brand that visible, except of course Ravish Shir hadn't, hadn't missed out on this. It had huge 3D logos both at the main entrance outside and inside and all day people were posing by this and having their photograph taken and it was hilarious. Cause they didn't just pose once. They had a whole series of different poses sitting, standing fingers on Chins gurning. And they, it was just, just watching the repertoire go through them was hilarious For
Speaker 0 00:13:21 An old bloke <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:13:22 For an old bloke, I think it'd be hilarious for anybody. Come on, give me a break.
Speaker 0 00:13:26 Yeah, no, it's always good to be outside looking in there in my eyes, but still. Okay. So, you know, it sounds like it's useful on many levels, this show, um, and you know, bit of a trend setter and probably always has been to the of it.
Speaker 3 00:13:39 Well it is interesting on, on a lot of levels. I mean, I would say that probably if you were running a big European tile shop, you're not gonna go there to find a whole load of products to, to stock because you know, the distance is still probably prohibitive. But if you want to experience something different, get some ideas about how a different culture demonstrates tiles, both the commonalities and the differences. It's a great show. It is fun. I mean it's a, it's a fun event. You can go to some very interesting talks and you'll see some brands that you just don't get to see if you go to Chairi or sema or Coverings.
Speaker 0 00:14:14 So, so pretty good for your interior designers and uh, you specifies her, you know, wanting to look a little bit beyond.
Speaker 3 00:14:21 I I think it would, I mean there are some issues with, if you are like me not a Portuguese speaker, because a lot of the people there don't speak very good English. And certainly to my ears, Portuguese is very difficult to understand. Um, even when you are looking at the words and somebody's speaking to them, I mean, I just find a huge disconnect. So there is, there is a slight element of that and it is a South American show catering for, largely for Brazilians. So, you know, yeah. Why should they cater for people from the uk but I I, you still, still get a lot out of it. The visual element of it, the, the sort of slight party atmosphere that's there, you can't help but appreciate. Um, and it was rammed though, it was supposed to attract 60,000 over the four days. Well I, I spoke to Andre Campania who's the head of marketing for the show on the second day and they had had over 30,000 through on that day alone. And he said that he'd actually, he had turned off the online registration, not because the venue couldn't cope, but he was just worried about clogging up all the roads in, in, in the vicinity if he attracted too many people there.
Speaker 0 00:15:24 Surely not. You can't be worried about attracting too many people to
Speaker 3 00:15:28 A show. Well that's what he told me, <laugh>. Um, and it's true, but I mean this is also true of Bolon and quite a few other exhibition centers is if it is a weakness of both this and the previous venue is then they are just not well served by public transport. So basically everybody has to drive to it mm-hmm <affirmative> and that means either driving in their own car or in a incredible number of mini buses that keep the whole thing kind of serviced with people. And cuz most people are staying in the center of South Pao, which is a, you know, quite a decent drive away there. It does clog up the roads and frankly, south Paolo's roads don't need any help to be clogged up because if there's, the one thing I don't like about the place is the, they are just staggering numbers of cars and particularly motorbikes on the roads and it feels very, very dangerous.
Speaker 0 00:16:15 So they don't have some kind of, um, park and ride scheme, which would seem like an obvious solution to that.
Speaker 3 00:16:21 Well the obvious solution would be to have a big train station there and the train's just arriving and picking people off. But no, they don't and they didn't at the previous one. And it's a, it is a very car-centric kind of city it seems to me. I mean yes, yes it has bus systems, but no, I would say most people arriving there were, were driving there themselves or coming on buses from the stations because most of the buses that were, um, serving people as they left the show were heading for sta train stations in town. So
Speaker 0 00:16:50 Would you recommend going if you were from, you know, from Europe or from North America or Asia, would you think it's worth a trip just for a different taste of
Speaker 3 00:17:00 Stuff? Well, I mean the fact that I've been going there for 18 years, um, you can probably guess the answer. I think it is, I wouldn't say go there every year and I wouldn't say go there with a view to doing it. You are only buying trip of the year or your only evaluation of trends or whatever. But if you once every x number of years to get a sense of something different, to experience a very vibrant culture, one that takes design very seriously but has a different, slightly different take on it than in Europe, um, it's absolutely worth it. And some of the brands are truly world class. I mean I've obviously already mentioned Portobello, but Portinari, Eliani Elizabeth are huge brands. Plus you see ESA and Rocker have got big Brazilian operations and they're exhibiting and then there's some of the biggest factories in the world, like in Seppa and stuff will be there as well. Well, um, yeah, it is surprising that there weren't big Mexican manufacturers exhibiting there and maybe that's cuz they're keeping their powder dry for, for coverings in a few weeks. So it was largely Brazilian fair, but I, you know, I don't think that's a, that's a problem.
Speaker 0 00:18:03 Well the cost, the good news is that if other people can't manage to get the in you can then you can tell 'em all about it. So I think there's gonna be more information up. And I think you've already done one article on Diary Tyler, haven't you? And there's a bit more to come
Speaker 3 00:18:17 One in one incident, incidental fact, which are rather tickled me, the, the hotel I was staying at along with the other three international journalists who actually were from Argentina, Columbia and Paraguay, was that this is also where the, a lot of the big international buyers who'd been invited by the show were staying and they were largely from South America. And I don't know if anybody's seen the TV series, Spanish TV series called Money Heist or uh, something de papi
Speaker 0 00:18:45 La I think
Speaker 3 00:18:47 La not
Speaker 0 00:18:48 The my Spanish is
Speaker 3 00:18:49 Any good, but yeah, Lael, but ael where, where the main,
Speaker 0 00:18:52 Sorry, all Spanish speakers, we don't speak Spanish. Leave that to Hannah. She does.
Speaker 3 00:18:57 Okay. So we take from Lael where the main characters are named after Worldwide Cities, the people who were staying at the hotel with me had adopted the names. So we were sitting having a, a drink after the show one night and David says, oh, here comes Columbia. And then it was, oh, hello Paraguay. And they were basically all talking about each other as, uh, by their com, by their country names. I was of course glitter. Um, although they or sometimes attempted to call me Joe, which is hilarious because it came out as something like <unk>. Um, but after a while I realized that, so they were talking to me, so that was good. But yeah, it was just, they were, and also really, really nice people and I was interested to find that the, the guy from Panama had also been at Sevi Armor two weeks ago, so, you know, serious, serious tile buyers. Um, and they were having a, a really good time and you know, clearly they are regulars, they love the show. Um, so the small numbers of o overseas foreign visitors didn't mean that there weren't some really high cast ones there. And probably if you are an exhibitor, that's all you need. I mean, a thousand quality buyers is plenty. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:20:04 Awesome. Top-notch journalist to tell everyone else about it, it couldn't go sign.
Speaker 3 00:20:09 Yeah, yeah. That's cool. Yeah, and that was the strange thing with know these three interior design magazines from South America and diary vial at, and that was what I, what job done really, I think from them, from the press point of view, that's the
Speaker 0 00:20:21 World. Yeah, no, well, <laugh>, that's brilliant Joe, thanks for that. Hope you enjoyed listening everybody from wherever you are in the world. Do you let us know what you think of the show
Speaker 3 00:20:31 And by bye, um, tomorrow off to Portugal to go on a tour of tile factories. There
Speaker 0 00:20:36 You're just showing off
Speaker 3 00:20:37 Now. I am just showing off, but you know, keep listening <laugh>, you never know.
Speaker 0 00:20:41 Okay, see you next week, Joe. You've been listening to Tile Cast produced by Diary of a Tile Addict to ensure you don't miss any future episodes. Don't forget to follow us. You can also find show notes and receive updates on newsfeeds articles, podcasts, and videos direct to your inbox by subscribing to the diary of a tile addict.com website. Get the inside track, a diary of a tile addict.
